Cell phones in schools: Is banning the answer?

Antero Garcia (00:00):

The reason we're going towards banning is because we don't have another alternative, and because we haven't thought about, "How do we prepare the teaching profession around cell phones?"

Denise Pope (00:12):

Welcome to School's In, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights and learning. From early education to lifelong development, we dive into trends, innovations, and challenges facing learners of all ages. I'm Denise Pope, senior lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Education and co-founder of Challenge Success.

Dan Schwartz (00:35):

I'm Dan Schwartz. I'm the dean of the Graduate School of Education, and the faculty director of the Stanford Accelerator for Learning.

Denise Pope (00:45):

Together, we bring you expert perspectives and conversations to help you stay curious, inspired, and informed.

Denise Pope (00:54): 

Hi, Dan.

Dan Schwartz (00:55):

Denise, it's good to see you.

Denise Pope (00:58):

Good to see you. I'm super excited about our show today. We have a hot, hot topic. It is cell phones. The use of cell phones at school. I know that a bunch of parents and caregivers are also thinking about cell phone and cell phone usage, and social media time, and screen time. All of those things that everybody's all up in arms with, as Dan is looking at his phone right now.

Dan Schwartz (01:22):

Sorry, were you saying something, Denise?

Denise Pope (01:24):

Very clever.

Dan Schwartz (01:25):

I was checking my-

Denise Pope (01:26):

Very clever, Dan. Anyway, Dan, I have heard you talk about this before. I've actually been present when people have come up to you and said this question, which is, "How do I know when my kid is on their phone for too long?" You have a great answer, so I want you to go ahead and share that.

Dan Schwartz (01:47):

If you're asking me that question, it's probably too much.

Denise Pope (01:50):

Right? This is such a good answer, Dan, right? Because obviously-

Dan Schwartz (01:54):

Why?

Denise Pope (01:54):

This is why, because something is nagging at them. One of the things that we say at Challenge Success, we have a whole thing that we roll out for parents on this, is if it's interfering with sleep, if it's interfering with play, if it's interfering with learning or getting your homework done, if it's interfering with family time, all the things that we know developmentally kids need, then it's probably too much. But I don't want it to sound like it's negative, because there's also a lot of positives, and so we're really lucky to have an expert with us today.

Dan Schwartz (02:24):

Yes, we are. We have a three-peat guest, Professor Antero Garcia of the Graduate School of Education, who is also the president-elect of the National Council of Teachers of English. He was a longtime English teacher in South Central LA. Welcome, Antero. It's good to have you back.

Antero Garcia (02:43):

Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Denise.

Dan Schwartz (02:45):

Antero, I remember there were efforts to get each kid a laptop in school. This was a big push. Now most kids have cell phones, which are way more powerful than the laptops back in the day and everyone's trying to ban them in schools. The irony's good. So how should we think about cell phones in schools? I know you've put some thought into this.

Antero Garcia (03:08):

One, I appreciate the, "If you're asking this question, it's probably too much," in the sense of interference, Denise. That if it's interfering with our ability to be human beings, I think those are probably some good heuristics for us to just kind of move forward with. I guess, I will just start and say it is incredible. We're talking two and a half decades, a quarter of a century into the 20th century and we're still having the cell phone debate. My preliminary research about cell phones was conducted in 2010. We're a decade and a half away from when that work was collected and we're having the exact same conversation. We could go in a time machine and 10 years ago we would be having this conversation, including the one laptop per child kind of conversation tied to it. We could probably go a decade in the future and have this exact same conversation. We would just update it with the-

Denise Pope (04:02):

No. No. Tell me that's not true, Antero, because you're going to solve the problem.

Dan Schwartz (04:04):

Sorry. There's more people talking about it now, though.

Denise Pope (04:08):

Oh.

Dan Schwartz (04:08):

That's probably a change,

Antero Garcia (04:09):

Who do you think those people are, Dan? If I can ask a question around here.

Denise Pope (04:14):

That's not allowed on the show. Okay. Sorry, Antero.

Dan Schwartz (04:17):

I would guess parents.

Denise Pope (04:19):

I actually was going to say we haven't had schools talk about it as much as we've seen now. Parents for sure have always been asking and are worried. We actually have kids who will say, "Can you ban it during recess and lunch? Because everyone's just looking down on their phones. We're not talking to each other anymore." School buses are silent. How bizarre. School buses are ... I'm sure the bus drivers are happy, but-

Antero Garcia (04:48):

Yeah, that's the dream for the bus driver.

Denise Pope (04:49):

Yeah. Even the kids I think are talking about it more now. Even they realize something's not right. I don't want it to sound too negative, Antero, because you usually do bring up a lot of the positives, too. So help us understand this.

Antero Garcia (05:02):

I think there's a lot of positives. My concern is the short-sighted nature of what happens when we ban a device. I think it is a similar concern we're having around AI right now. AI is going to do all of our homework, therefore we need to get rid of AI and figure out cool tools to make sure that we can eliminate AI in everybody's writing, or whatever other work they're doing.

(05:22):

I think that's the same conversation that's happening with cell phones. There's a lot of bad things happening with cell phones, kids are distracted, they're not paying attention to teachers, there's issues of power and authority, and therefore, we should just get rid of them. That might fix something for some people, but I think there are some long-term consequences to doing that, that schools are not willing to think through, and I think that parents, with good nature, are also not willing to engage with.

(05:44):

I think those kids that you're speaking about are really offering some sophisticated thinking of, "I'd love to get this device banned because of what it's doing to me and my relationships," is actually a really nice starting place for us to think about this. "What are the relationships that are aided by cell phones and by digital technology? What are the academic uses that are aided by technology? And where are the places where it might hinder my ability to make meaningful connections with people?" I think in the same way that when I'm having a face-to-face interaction with somebody, my cell phone is going to get in the way. Or if I'm at the dinner table and I take a peek at my phone, I'm both reinforcing a kind of message to my kids about my relationship to them. And there are places where that cell phone, that same device, allows me to stay connected with family who aren't at the dinner table with me. I think there's some ways where we need to think through, "What is the world that we're creating as a result of our relationship and our policies with technology?"

Dan Schwartz (06:36):

Do you think reason discourse is going to be enough? I mean, the way people use cell phones strikes me as the way they go gambling. They're sort of hoping for a reward signal. So they keep using it, waiting for the reward signal. Rewards are really powerful. If you do research with young kids, you're not allowed to use food rewards, even love and praise because they're such powerful shapers of behavior. So if I had a conversation with my kid about, "Don't use the cell phone, it's going to interfere with your ability to get a girlfriend 10 years from now," is it going to work?

Denise Pope (07:17):

Okay, that is not going to work. Let me just tell you that. That's not going to work. Okay. Reason discourse, meaning ...

Dan Schwartz (07:27):

I thought Antero was suggesting that we have a conversation about this with the cell phone users, being the kids.

Antero Garcia (07:33):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (07:33):

Yeah.

Antero Garcia (07:34):

I think there's a thing to unpack before that, and that is, as adults ... I mention my own poor behavior with cell phones sometimes as a thing that happens. As adults, we don't have very good use in general with our cell phones. And then we place that as a way to distrust young people, because they both learn from us how to use cell phones. They learn from each other. And we don't have good protocols on what to actually do with them, which is, as a result, because we don't have, as adults, a good plan, the best plan we can come up with is, "Well, let's just do the blanket statement, 'Let's ban them all,' then figure out as a society, 'What are meaningful ways to use cell phones?'"

(08:11):

As an example, every day when I pick my kids up after school, in order to check them out of their after-school program, I scan a QR code on my phone, I enter a whole bunch of ... It takes forever. It is the longest process. But given that, my cell phone, every day, aids me. Allows me to stay connected. Allows me to engage in my responsibilities as a dad, in my responsibilities as a worker. I regularly am engaging with my students, my doctoral students in the School of Education. I connect with them all of the time over research projects. I answer their quick questions as they are trying to figure out what classes to take and I have no idea how to guide them around that. All of those kinds of questions are mediated on cell phones, both on Slack and on text messages. I reply to emails. There are lots of different kinds of things. Maybe that's all kind of bureaucratic glut, but it's also the ways that people know where and how they can rely on me, and the ways I know I can rely on other people. Cell phones play a role.

(09:02):

When we ban them, what are we telling people about the role of these devices in their workplace and in their learning context? I think there's some really big missed opportunities. We should think through, "What are the meaningful ways where we can pull these in?" At every age group. My five-year-old twins don't have cell phones, so it's not a concern there. I imagine this will be a conversation with them when they enter middle school. That is my guess of kind where we are.

Denise Pope (09:24):

Oh, yeah.

Dan Schwartz (09:27):

Denise, Antero, do we know, are teachers doing units on cell phone use? Is this being taught explicitly?

Antero Garcia (09:34):

There's a smattering of teachers who use cell phones in curriculum, but not curriculum on cell phones. So it might be a, "Scan this QR code," or, "Go ahead and use your device," if that's a tablet or a laptop or your phone, to look up information or to record or make something. There is that kind of stuff.

(09:51):

But in terms of curriculum, I actually think the closest we get to that is kind of across these is the intersection of media literacy. So you get people thinking about, "How do you validate the quality of information?" That is only one slice of what cell phones do, but it's probably an important slice. Some of our other GSE colleagues have done a lot of work thinking through online reasoning, the role of mis- and disinformation and how we understand that. But again, I think that oftentimes only precludes one form of what kinds of civic and personal responsibilities can come up with these devices.

Dan Schwartz (10:22):

Right. Well, it's also not cell phone specific.

Antero Garcia (10:24):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (10:25):

You know?

Denise Pope (10:25):

Right.

Dan Schwartz (10:26):

The cell phone has special properties.

Denise Pope (10:27):

Although, I have seen, with the help of the kids actually, designing a ... just in a few places, "This is how the phone was developed. This is how the social media was developed." There's a reason why there's a ding or a notification. It's going back to Pavlov's dogs. There is a reason why the color is red of this. There's a reason why they have a continuing ... You don't come to the end. I don't even come to the end of the New York Times anymore. You could just keep reading. We found that when you bring students into that conversation and help them understand how they are being manipulated, how we all are being manipulated by these, it helps them to understand maybe why they're not able to self regulate.

Antero Garcia (11:14):

Yep. Yeah, that meta awareness I think does a lot. Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (11:16):

It's so intellectual. I mean, shouldn't it be in your health classes? It seems like a health thing rather than a cognitive thing.

Antero Garcia (11:23):

But it won't get into your health classes if we ban the devices in every school, right, we miss that opportunity.

Denise Pope (11:28):

Well-

Dan Schwartz (11:29):

No, you get a big fake plastic one at the front and you say-

Denise Pope (11:32):

No, wait. Let me push back a little bit. Just a little bit, Antero. Because you know I'm usually on your side, and I am on your side. But I did do a little bit of research and there are a couple of studies where ... I haven't seen the US ones. Maybe you have. I've seen one in Norway, one in Sweden, one in England, where they have studied schools that have banned, or classrooms ... that have been banned in classrooms or haven't been banned, and the effects were interesting. Sometimes an achievement goes up or grades go up. That's a whole other conversation we can have. Sometimes the mental health goes up. Sometimes the kids are saying, "Don't bring them back." They might be banned except for educational reasons at these schools, and the kids appreciate that. But then there's also kids who are like, "Hey, when it's recess or lunch, that's when I need to get a hold of my boss or my mom or my orthodontist appointment has been changed," or whatever. So they don't like the ... It's all over the map. What do you say to that?

Antero Garcia (12:33):

I think, one-

Dan Schwartz (12:35):

Yeah, what do you say to that?

Denise Pope (12:38):

Help us. Help us, Antero.

Antero Garcia (12:42):

As we're recording this online, am I being cyberbullied? Is this what's happening?

Denise Pope (12:44):

No. I'm saying it like it's all over the place, right? There's full bans. There's partial bans. There's just your teacher bans it when you come in.

Antero Garcia (12:53):

But I think in general, our relationship around this policy is ban or not ban, and there might be a little bit of opacity around what banning it means, can you use it during breaks or not? Again, when I did this work a decade and a half ago with young people in my own English classroom, the ways the young people talked about it is ... We can see this as a kind of cultural shift, but that was oftentimes lunchtime was when they were catching up with their friends. That was the place where they would see each other and make these person to person interactions because they would actually use the social time in hallway breaks when they could sneak a look at their phones and their teachers weren't looking to actually socialize with each other on their devices. That little bit of time during lunchtime is when you're going to put your phones away and actually spend time making meaningful interactions, which I think is a reflection on how young people were valuing their learning experience, particularly in the school that I was teaching at.

(13:45):

To go back to this banning idea, I think you're right that in the short term, maybe mental health goes up and maybe focus goes up because we've taken away the thing that young people actually want to do. But what are the long-term effects of doing that? We have kids who will then leave school, and then down the road, what are the ways where those young people essentially only have one alternative to using cell phones? And that is, "When I'm at work, I need to put it away." I think there's some real class and social class-based assumptions about what that does for the preparation of kids in America.

Dan Schwartz (14:17):

You got to say what those are.

Antero Garcia (14:21):

I think, and maybe briefly, the only place where you have to put away your cell phone when you're at work are places like McDonald's, are working class jobs, are the places where your phones are banned during work hours. As a professional, in a place where I'm empowered to make my own decisions and empowered to work with other people in meaningful ways, my cell phone plays an integral role in what I do. So our schools in planning to ban kids from using cell phones is preparing kids for working class jobs rather than preparing kids for the other ways that we might use technology responsibly.

Dan Schwartz (14:56):

It's an interesting claim. I'm not sure I buy it. I'm in a position where I make a lot of decisions, but I'm in meetings the whole time and I don't take out the cell phone because it would be incredibly rude. So I'm not sure. Of course it's not a hard ban. I could take out the cell phone, but then I wouldn't do very well at the job. The other part that I'm not so sure about is there's a lot of things that kids don't get to do that adults do, like kids don't get to drive. I think that's okay. It doesn't teach them that when they grow up, they're not allowed to drive. There's a time and a place. But it is interesting to think, "Do the rules of school set you up for the rules of life in cell phone use?"

Denise Pope (15:35):

Okay. Dan?

Dan Schwartz (15:35):

Yes.

Denise Pope (15:45):

I am going to put you on the spot right now. I want to know what is your relationship with your phone?

Dan Schwartz (15:54):

I've named it Michael.

Denise Pope (15:57):

You've named your phone?

Dan Schwartz (16:00):

No. I haven't even personalized the voice that talks to me. I use the cell phone for work for the most part.

Denise Pope (16:05):

Do you scroll?

Dan Schwartz (16:07):

No.

Denise Pope (16:08):

Do you have any social media?

Dan Schwartz (16:09):

You have to remember that when people check their cell phones, they're looking because they're going to get something that's interesting, exciting, rewarding. Most of the stuff I get is people that are angry at me. I don't want to open my cell phone and look at it. I don't want it. No, I use it. I have relatives that I call while I'm driving and things like that. And then I have texting, which I'm not a huge fan of just because I have to stop walking to text back.

Denise Pope (16:38):

I don't think anyone should be walking and texting, and yet they do. They do.

Dan Schwartz (16:41):

Yeah, riding bikes and texting is one of my favorite things to observe at Stanford.

Denise Pope (16:46):

Oh, my God. Scares me.

Dan Schwartz (16:46):

How about you? What's your relationship? Have you named it Fluffy?

Denise Pope (16:50):

I have not named my phone. But I will say this, the iPhone has a thing where you can track usage. It will tell you how many times you've picked it up, literally picked up your phone, and how many hours reading the New York Times or whatever. It is very eye opening. It says I average ... I mean, I'm going to admit this on ... It says I average like six hours a day, which sounds crazy.

Dan Schwartz (17:17):

Six hours a day.

Denise Pope (17:19):

But what you have to understand is a lot of that is emailing for work. Or yesterday, I did a walk and talk meeting. It counts that, right? It counts that I'm on the phone as ... So it's not a fair ... That six hours a day is not a fair thing because a lot of that is work. But then some of that is, yeah, I'm scrolling, I'm looking at pictures.

Dan Schwartz (17:43):

I think we need to put a cell phone lock on your thing. After three hours, you're done.

Denise Pope (17:47):

An intervention? We should ban it.

(17:54):

I want to bring in something that's really interesting, which is in the state of California there's a new law that's going into effect, not saying that schools need to ban cell phones, but mandating that schools have a policy where cell phones may or may not be restricted for either all or part of the day. What do you think of that, Antero?

Antero Garcia (18:13):

I think policies are great. That sounds great. We should have some kind of policy. I think that policy should probably be tied to meaningful practice of the ways we're supporting young people. Again, the reason we're going towards banning is because we don't have another alternative, and because we haven't thought about, "How do we prepare the teaching profession around cell phones?" The people who are training in teacher programs, like the Stanford Teacher Education Program, are for the most part in their early 20s. They've grown up with cell phones their entire lives, their entire lives as adolescents, as a known fact. So they know the good and bad about cell phones, and are incredibly vexed as soon as they walk into a classroom and all of a sudden, something much more interesting than teaching American history is happening on their cell phones.

(18:56):

As a result, we probably need to have a meaningful look at the ways we're preparing teachers, who are also on their cell phones during the classes I teach them in our Stanford Teacher Education program. We should probably think meaningfully about the ways we're preparing teachers, and the ways teachers are interacting with kids in schools. Some kind of policy guidance would be helpful. I'm not convinced that a ban is what that policy guidance should be, but I think there's useful guidelines that we could be creating together.

Dan Schwartz (19:23):

I'm going to go teach a class. I've got these undergraduates in there, maybe some graduate students. Give me a tip, Antero.

Antero Garcia (19:31):

Give us some names, Dan. Who are these-

Dan Schwartz (19:34):

No, give me a tip to the bunch of kids. I'm in the middle of the best lecture of my life. I'm feeling it. And then three kids open up their cell phone. What's a tip? Or if I just wanted to do a lesson on it. This is really actually a practical question. I'm a teacher, give me a place to get started given that I didn't get that curriculum because-

Antero Garcia (19:54):

I think there's two forks that we could go ... two paths, two spaces, two roads, not even diverging, but two roads that we could go-

Dan Schwartz (20:01):

One fork.

Antero Garcia (20:02):

Yeah, one fork. One is when we have students, and maybe we're not planning to do curriculum on cell phones that day and you've got the students who start texting in the middle of class, is a good opportunity to say, "As we're talking about this, I'd like for everyone to put your phones away for this period." I think if you said it every day at the beginning of every single class, you're going to lose your effectiveness.

(20:24):

But if you pull out the personal stakes of, "Hey, the thing we're talking about is actually meaningful and important, here's why we're going to talk about it. I need you to put away your phones for this next period," or, "I need you to be using your phone for X reason," to take notes, to ... if you feel comfortable with them recording the conversation, if it's a lecture. Whatever the case may be. That feels like a good way to bring in, to call in young people to work with you with their devices. It also means, though, in order to do that, that you probably need to have a good rationale of why you're teaching the thing you're teaching. If you want to say, "This is really important, it's more important than your phone," you should be able to articulate why. So that maybe is a ...

Denise Pope (20:59):

But wait-

Dan Schwartz (21:00):

You'll need it later in life. That's always the answer.

Denise Pope (21:01):

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Antero Garcia (21:03):

Oh, no.

Denise Pope (21:05):

Teachers around the country are rolling their eyes right now, what we are teaching is important. Now, there's definitely fluff. There's definitely busy work. I think that for those of us who are really trying to engage kids and have innovative, interesting lessons, and aren't going to just lecture, we still have issues with kids pulling out their phones. Teachers around the country are saying, "I'm tired of being the phone police. Like, help me."

Antero Garcia (21:30):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (21:31):

But Antero's suggesting you can use these as educable moments and have a conversation with them about the reasoning. I suspect the response for older kids will be, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents told me that."

Denise Pope (21:43):

No, I think kids ... we need to get kids in the middle of creating policy. I mean, that's what we do at Challenge Success. They will tell you why they're on their phone and why they're not, and, "I just don't see the meaning in what we're learning right now."

Dan Schwartz (21:56):

I can just see the kid running for president of the school on the platform of, "Let's have reasonable cell phone uses, everybody."

Denise Pope (22:06):

Okay, you can laugh, but that would totally get the kid elected. Yes.

Dan Schwartz (22:11):

Really?

Denise Pope (22:12):

Yes. I mean, if you think about ... Instead of just banning, "Where should it be allowed? How can we help people self regulate? How can we teach some cell phone media literacy?" The kids, they're on it. They know. They know. The older ones. I do think, just to wrap things up, though, what would you tell parents of young kids? Your five-year-olds don't have cell phones. Is there an age? From your work, what are you thinking?

Antero Garcia (22:36):

My five-year-olds don't have cell phones, but every day, they get to watch about 30 minutes of TV. They get to pick what it is. But lately, they have not been picking the same thing and it has created all sorts of strife. We have one child who's a big proponent of Peppa Pig and one who's a big proponent of always watching the movie Frozen over and over. The way we've solved this is through giving one of them an iPad with headphones. That is creating peace and calm in our house, for better or worse. I just want to recognize that mobile media devices are playing a role in our parenting, for better or worse, right?

Denise Pope (23:10):

Oh, 100%.

Antero Garcia (23:10):

Screen time is a whole conversation. It's very complicated. We held out as long as we could. And then once the social pressure of their classmates started talking about the shows that they're watching at school, our kids felt left behind because they weren't on the same platforms, knowing the same shows and knowing who their favorite character on Spidey and Friends was. Those are important factors of how young people get accultured into peer social networks.

(23:35):

Part of this is recognizing that the reason this is such a complicated issue is because kids care a lot about the relationships they have with other people, and these devices are playing a role in that. Part of this parenting conversation and part of how we move forward is to think through and value what young people are doing. I think so much of this policing of kids in schools is kids experiencing the tail end of policies and draconian things coming down to them rather than having meaningful inputs throughout the process.

Denise Pope (24:00):

I would agree with you with that. I will say there are certain things, because your prefrontal cortex is not fully formed, that you need some guardrails.

Antero Garcia (24:08):

Me, personally. Is this about me?

Denise Pope (24:09):

Yes, yours, Antero. No, but if you think about a five-year-old and a fifteen-year-old, there's a reason why they're only allowed a certain amount of TV and it's not a free-for-all. We tell parents to really think about, "When is appropriate use of the phone? Where does the phone or any kind of device live at night?" We want it to be out of the bedroom because there's very good studies that show that that is affecting kids' mental health. So at dinnertime, during family activities, when you're talking to grandma on Zoom or whatever, you're not going to then also be on your phone. This is just stuff that naturally happens in the family. I think if we modeled some of that same kind of conversations at schools, when is time to use it? When is it helpful? When is it harmful?

Antero Garcia (24:52):

And when, in the words of Elsa from Frozen, do we let it go?

Denise Pope (24:55):

When do we let it go? Yeah, when do we let it go?

Dan Schwartz (24:57):

Nice. Nice.

Denise Pope (25:00):

We're going to have to have a whole other show on this, when Antero's kids turn 12, because-

Dan Schwartz (25:06):

We'll check back in-

Denise Pope (25:07):

... I'm very interested to see. Also, you said in a decade from now, we're going to be talking about this. I hope that we have much better answers. But I like how you have made this, it's not an easy "ban it". It's not an easy, "Anything goes. Let them all use it all the time." Conversations with kids, with parents, with caregivers, with teachers. A lot more needs to be done. We have a lot of work to do, but really good conversation. Thank you, Antero.

Antero Garcia (25:33):

Thank you.

Denise Pope (25:37):

Thank you all for joining us, this episode of School's In. Be sure to subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you tune in. I'm Denise Pope.

Dan Schwartz (25:48):

Oh, wait. Sorry, I was texting. I'm Dan Schwartz.