Sean Reardon (00:00):

Declines in test scores were more than twice as big in the poorest communities in the country than they were in the most affluent. And so that means that kids in those communities are much, much further behind. They already were further behind, and now they're even more behind. So there's sort of a widening inequality as a result of the pandemic, not just an overall decline.

Dan Schwartz (00:23):

Today we're discussing the impact of poverty and inequality on educational opportunities, specifically focusing on learning loss during the pandemic and the gains, or not, that we've made since.

Denise Pope (00:34):

It's kind of crazy that we are still talking about the impacts of the pandemic. And that's the main reason why we're tackling it in several episodes. The data is coming in and it's sobering. The pandemic impacted all learners no matter the income level, and the recovery has been uneven at best. It's more important than ever to address these gaps and find ways to support all learners. So let's dive in.

(00:59):

Welcome to School's In, your go-to podcast for cutting edge insights in learning. Each episode, we dive into the latest trends, innovations, and challenges facing learners.

(01:08):

I'm Denise Pope, senior lecturer at Stanford GSE and co-founder of Challenge Success. And I am here with my wonderful co-host, Dan Schwartz, dean of the Stanford Graduate School of Education and the faculty director of the Stanford Accelerator for Learning.

Dan Schwartz (01:30):

Hi, Denise. It's good to see you again. One of our big questions today is, what happened with learning loss since COVID?

(01:36):

Now, when we talk about learning loss, we're not talking about forgetting some things over the summer; what's typically called "summer melt." What we're talking about is students not having a chance to learn, and that's what happened in COVID.

(01:49):

We're incredibly fortunate to have a leading scholar on this topic join us today. It is Professor Sean Reardon. He's a professor of Poverty and Inequality in Education at Stanford. He looks at causes, patterns, trends, consequences of educational inequality across the nation. He has a very unique database that basically has the standardized tests of every child,, and so he's been the go-to researcher on pandemic recovery.

(02:16):

So Sean, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Denise Pope (02:19):

Sean, we would love to start by having you walk us through exactly how we measure learning loss in the first place and recovery.

Sean Reardon (02:27):

Yeah. First what we do is we look at ... For example, we look at eighth graders in 2019 before the pandemic, and we see across the country and in every school district in the country, "What was their average scores in math and reading?" And then we're able to look again at eighth graders three years later, after the pandemic, spring of 2022, and see what their average scores are in math and reading. And then we can compare where the eighth graders were in 2022; those kids were in fifth, sixth, seventh grade through the pandemic and so didn't have the opportunity often to learn all the material that one would typically learn; and we compare them to what the eighth graders three years before knew who went through fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade under normal conditions.

(03:15):

And what we find and what all the national data shows is that in 2022, students were about a half grade further behind in math and about a third of a grade further behind in reading than where their counterparts were in 2022. What that means is that over those three years of the pandemic period, kids missed out on a half year of instruction of math essentially. They just didn't get the opportunity to learn as much math as they would've without the pandemic.

Dan Schwartz (03:46):

So Denise, would that have been your prediction? That of all the disciplines that we measure, math would take the biggest hit?

Denise Pope (03:53):

I think that would have been. A half year is a lot. That's bigger than I would've guessed. A half year ... I mean, that's a half a year, right? That's a lot. I was thinking a couple months maybe, but six months?

(04:07):

Well, how do you measure a year? Is it six months? Because it's a nine-month school year.

Sean Reardon (04:12):

It's half of a nine-month school year. So think of it as four and a half months. It was really a little more than a half, so call it five months.

Denise Pope (04:19):

Okay. That's a lot. That's higher than I thought.

(04:20):

But yeah, I would've thought math because that's what empties out of my brain the quickest, so ...

Dan Schwartz (04:26):

No, no, that's not the reason.

(04:29):

Sean, do you have a good theory for why math?

Sean Reardon (04:32):

Yeah, I mean, I think the reason is likely that during the pandemic when kids weren't getting as much instruction in school, either they weren't in school or they couldn't concentrate as much, or there's a lot obviously else going on in the world, that at home kids are more likely to read, or if they're young kids, their parents might read to them, but it's much less common for kids to sort of sit down and do some algebra in their spare time at home or have their parents sit down and work through multiplication tables with them at home.

(05:04):

And so most math learning typically happens in school as a result of what happens in math classrooms, but kids learn to read both at school and at home. And so I think that's why we saw a little bit less of a hit in reading than in math, because the missing out on school hurts math more.

Dan Schwartz (05:23):

I have to describe this study, because it's sort of outrageous.

(05:28):

So there was someone who took five-year olds, English speaking five-year olds, and they had them memorize a passage in Greek from Homer.

Denise Pope (05:36):

Oh my ... These poor babies.

Dan Schwartz (05:38):

Yeah, they just memorized the Greek. You know, just meaningless symbols.

Denise Pope (05:42):

Okay.

Dan Schwartz (05:42):

And 10 years later, he came back and he had two conditions, and in both of them, he tried to teach the same poem in Greek. In one condition was these kids who had learned it when they were five and probably had no memory that they ever learned it. The other condition were kids who had never been exposed to it. So the ones who had been exposed and memorized it when they were five learned it like five times faster than the ones who had never been exposed.

(06:09):

What does this have to do with learning loss? You never really lose it. It's just sort of there waiting for you to come back and get it.

Denise Pope (06:15):

So that gives me a little bit of hope. Right?

(06:18):

But I will tell you, there are some things that I still remember from high school that I have no need for whatsoever. I mean, "Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote," right? Like Chaucer, the first lines of Chaucer. What is that doing in my head? I have all the kings and queens of England memorized in order. Willie, Willie, Harry, Steve, Harry, Dick, John, Harry 3, 1, 2, 3 Ned, Richard 2, Henry 4, 5, 6, then who. Why is that in my brain?

Dan Schwartz (06:43):

I don't know.

Denise Pope (06:43):

It's like that guy with the Greek. They put that in there and I can't get it out now.

Dan Schwartz (06:47):

I don't know, but just hearing you do that, I like you more. That's why.

Denise Pope (06:56):

And obviously there are other subjects that you learn in school, but you only have data for math and reading. Is that right?

Sean Reardon (07:03):

That's right. For the last 20 years, we have tested in this country every third through eighth grader every year in math and reading. So yeah, we have data going back to 2009. So we have about 500 million test scores from every kid in the country over that time period. That tells us a lot about math and reading. But we don't test how well kids are doing in the arts or in history or things like that, and so we don't know as much about what the pandemic did to kids' other sets of skills.

Denise Pope (07:37):

And we may never know.

(07:38):

Part of that is what you assess is what you care about too. So that also says something about sort of the lower level status of some of these subjects that don't get assessed.

(07:49):

Dan, you don't think that's lower level ... I'm not saying they do have lower level status.

Dan Schwartz (07:53):

They're so special that we don't bother to measure them.

Denise Pope (07:56):

Okay, you could look at it that way too, but we still won't know what got lost.

Dan Schwartz (08:00):

Okay, Sean, so your database tells me something about the regions the tests are coming from, the social status, the economic status.

Sean Reardon (08:09):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (08:10):

Before we talk about the bounce back, like how people are coming back, did the hit to math and English, was it even?

Sean Reardon (08:18):

No, that's maybe the biggest concern. I mean, obviously the kids didn't learn as much is a concern, but that fell disproportionately on kids in the lowest income communities in the country. And so the declines in test scores were more than twice as big in the poorest communities in the country than they were in the most affluent. And so that means that kids in those communities are much, much further behind. They already were further behind, and now they're even more behind. So there's sort of a widening inequality as a result of the pandemic, not just an overall decline. That's particularly concerning.

Dan Schwartz (08:54):

Sometimes people bash schools, but when I hear that, I realize how important school is as a lever of equity, and when it gets disrupted, the inequities really ... They get bigger, more rampant. Is that a fair conclusion on this, or ...

Sean Reardon (09:11):

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. We often hear that schools are unequal, that schools in poor communities don't have the same resources or don't have the ability to attract skilled or experienced teachers, they don't have as good facilities, and so schools are worse in poorer communities and better in affluent communities. And so people say, "Oh, the schooling system's really unequal." Which there's some truth to that, but schools aren't nearly as unequal as families. The difference in growing up in a poor family and in a rich family is an orders of magnitude of income difference. And the differences between schools in rich and poor communities aren't nearly that big.

(09:47):

So while schools might be somewhat unequal, they're much more equal than family environments are in terms of the kinds of resources available. So schools tend to act like an equalizing force in society even though they're not completely equal. Sort of an interesting paradox.

Denise Pope (10:05):

Sean, what did you find out when you looked post 2022, I guess that's what it was, at how kids were doing now?

Sean Reardon (10:13):

What we found was actually pretty surprising, I think, and better news than I would've expected or many would've expected. What we found was that even though there had been a half grade of lost learning in math, kids recovered a third of that loss in just one year; which might not sound like a lot, but what it means is that the average student learned about 15 to 20% more in the '22 to '23 school year than a typical student learned before the pandemic. If we could increase national productivity or GDP by 20% in a year, we'd be bouncing off the walls, right? So a 20% increase in how much kids learn in one year is big.

(10:55):

It's also really big in historical terms. If you look back over the last 30 years at the rates at which scores have improved nationally, and they have improved nationally a lot over the last 30 years, the rate at which they improved in this last year was as big or bigger than in any time in the last 30 years.

(11:14):

So the good news is, while there was a big decline, the first year after the pandemic shows real signs of a strong recovery. We're not all the way back, but we made really good progress, and I think a surprising amount.

Dan Schwartz (11:28):

Is that because people are just pedaling faster, or ...

Denise Pope (11:33):

You mean teachers are working harder?

Dan Schwartz (11:35):

And students.

Denise Pope (11:36):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (11:37):

Do we have some explanation for how this happened?

Sean Reardon (11:40):

So I think what likely accounts for it is that school systems and teachers really focused on helping kids catch up with some of the material they lost. And not just in their regular math class, but a lot of school districts invested in extra tutoring programs for kids, after school academic programs for kids, extended summer school programs. So a lot of extra resources went in to try to help kids recover.

(12:09):

Some of that was funded by funds from the federal government that were intended to help school districts recover. But in fact, the recovery was much larger than you would've guessed just based on the amount of money that the federal government put in. I think we owe some gratitude to teachers and principals who I think really have helped students out a lot post-pandemic, and we've made real progress.

Denise Pope (12:31):

No, agreed. Shout out to all the educators and teachers out there who are working their butts off. Oh my gosh. It is so great to hear that all those efforts have really affected the students so positively. Yay.

(12:44):

Okay, now I'm curious, because we've discussed learning loss in the under-resourced schools; please tell us, what about the recovery?

Sean Reardon (12:52):

Recovery hasn't been unequal. That is kids in poor districts and rich districts have recovered about as much as each other. But that's not enough to undo the inequality that was exacerbated by the pandemic. So kids in low-income districts fell behind further during the pandemic, and then everyone recovered about the same amount during the pandemic. So the kids in the low-income districts are still further behind.

(13:18):

In lots of affluent districts, test scores are back up equal to or above where they were before the pandemic. So there's been near complete recovery in the richest places, but because the poor places saw such a large decline, the recovery hasn't yet been enough to kind of get them back up to where they were before the pandemic.

Dan Schwartz (13:39):

My biggest concern on COVID was actually for the youngest kids, that this is an important window for social emotional development, for developing a taste for what schools have to offer. Are they sort of starting to show up in your database? I heard you started with third grade, but are they beginning to show up and can you get a fix on it?

Sean Reardon (14:01):

So far, we haven't seen much difference across grades and how big the lost learning was, and not much difference in the size of the recovery. But those third graders were kids who were sort of coming into kindergarten or just in kindergarten at the beginning of the pandemic. The other group of kids that I worry about are the kids even younger than that who were sort of in early childhood, in preschool during the pandemic. And we don't know a whole lot about what's happened to those kids. My team and I are starting some research, we're collecting data that's going to help us to answer what happened to those very young kids during the pandemic, but we'll have to come back and talk about that another time.

Dan Schwartz (14:40):

They're going to start showing up in your database next year, is that right?

Sean Reardon (14:44):

They're starting to come into third grade, and so we'll be able to see more of them over the next few years.

Dan Schwartz (14:50):

Do you have a prediction, Denise?

Denise Pope (14:51):

Well, I was just going to say, are you worried? Because we know there's certain windows where ... Even language learning, for instance, there's a certain window where it gets much harder as you get older to start something new. Is that why you both are holding this tight with the young kids and worried?

Sean Reardon (15:06):

I'm worried about it for a couple reasons. One is, yeah, there's sort of critical periods in early childhood, and early elementary school are key periods, but also, places that were not in-person schooling for a while, that's particularly hard for a first grader. First grade Zoom school is not super effective, both at socialization into how to be in school and also just in terms of learning. You can't do all the stuff and you can't have the one-on-one attention from the teacher. So I think it's likely that remote learning was more harmful to the very young kids than it was to the older kids who could adapt more easily to the Zoom modality.

Denise Pope (15:49):

So I'm a parent, I'm listening to this. I want to do something to help, right? This is making me very sad. What can an average person do in terms of helping, advocating? What can we do?

Sean Reardon (16:02):

I think one of the things, we looked at survey data, and we found that a lot of parents during and right after the pandemic period didn't really have a sense of how far behind their kids were. Most parents sort of said, "I think my kid's doing fine." And the reason why they say that is because imagine that you have an eighth grader in 2022; well, you don't really know what an eighth grader in 2019 knew in terms of math unless you happen to have a child three years older, right? So it's very hard for a parent to sort of know from their one child, "What does a typical eighth grader know and can do in terms of math or other subjects?" So it's very hard for a parent to assess whether their kid's on track or behind where they should be.

(16:46):

The school district is in a better position, and teachers and the data the district has is in a better position to sort of help parents do that. But I don't think there was a lot of communication always of that. And so I think one of the things parents can do is really talk to the teachers and the principals to sort of understand where is their child at and where are kids at in their community? And then think about, what resources can they bring? How can they advocate for their child? How can they advocate for another child to make sure that the kids who are behind are really getting the resources they need?

Denise Pope (17:18):

I know there's also ... You talked about the federal funding, right? ESSR, other funds like that. And I know that they're ending right now. But it sounds like even though you said it wasn't all about money, some of it was about money. So is there a way that an individual can rally their congressperson, or ... I don't know. How can we get this money back?

Sean Reardon (17:40):

Yeah. The federal government provided school districts with 190 billion dollars starting early in the pandemic, and it'll end this year. That sounds like a lot of money, but that actually is only about less than one third of the annual budget we spend on education. So spread out over four years or so, it's not a ton of money per child. And that money has mostly been spent, and the rest of it needs to be spent in the next six to nine months, and we're not going to be fully recovered in lots of these districts, particularly the low income districts, by then.

(18:15):

So I think it's important for states to step in and fill the void a little bit, carry the baton, and figure out how to provide extra targeted resources to those kids and those schools and districts that still have a long way to catch up. And parents can really help advocate for that because they can talk to their state congressperson, they can talk to their superintendent, and they can help keep the pressure on to make sure that people are paying attention to those kids who need it the most.

Dan Schwartz (18:42):

So Sean, there's probably a lot of people who want to know which state's approach to shutting schools work the best; at least for educational outcomes, maybe not for mortality rates. So do you know this?

Sean Reardon (18:57):

Well, we have data actually for every school and school district in the country. And what we generally find, and other research has shown, is that the longer a school district was in a remote or hybrid instruction mode, the further behind kids fell.

(19:13):

But really, remote schooling only explains a small part of the learning losses. I mean, you have to remember, the pandemic was an all encompassing global event. It wasn't just that kids were suddenly learning on Zoom. They were also not able to see their friends, not able to participate in extracurriculars.

Denise Pope (19:32):

Yes, exactly. These kids' lives really were disrupted in every way possible during the pandemic, and it's all playing a part in where we are today.

(19:42):

Thank you so much, Sean, for being here. We learned so much. Thank you, thank you. We learned so much about learning loss, and we're really glad to hear about the recovery underway.

Dan Schwartz (19:52):

Yes. Thank you, Sean. Your research makes it clear that the most vulnerable students are also the ones who suffered the most during this time. It's a stark reminder of how crucial it is to address inequality and educational opportunity.

Denise Pope (20:07):

Agreed, Dan. Agreed. But all hope isn't lost here. And I think there is a lot we as educators and as parents can do to help. For parents, get involved as much as you can; connect with teachers to see how your kid is doing, offer resources if you have that ability, and ultimately just continue to advocate for your child.

Dan Schwartz (20:26):

And for educators, keep showing up for the kids like you have been. I know this is a lot of extra work, it's hard work, but it makes a difference. So connect with parents, keep them informed as much as we can, have patience, and help these kids climb back.

Denise Pope (20:42):

100%, Dan. I could not agree more.

(20:44):

Thank you again to our guest, Sean Reardon for this really enlightening conversation. And thank all of you for joining us on this episode of School's In. Remember to subscribe to our show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you tune in.

(20:58):

I'm Denise Pope.

Dan Schwartz (20:59):

I'm Dan Schwartz.